Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart

Nourishment Through Food and Resource Management

Today, we are talking about Indigenous ways of eating and entrepreneurship! How do our values inform food, work ethic, and investment? Kim Tilsen-Brave Heart is a member of the Oglala Lakota Nation of the Pine Ridge Indian Reserve in South Dakota. She is an entrepreneur, a chef, and she embraces both her Indigenous and Jewish heritage.

Links:

https://www.chefbraveheart.com

https://www.paintedskyemanagement.com

Leah Lemm:
Okay, should we start?

Daniel Lemm:
I've already started.

Leah Lemm:
Oh.

Daniel Lemm:
Yes, let's do this.

Leah Lemm:
Boozhoo, I'm Leah Lemm, citizen of the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.

Daniel Lemm:
Hau Mitakuyapi, I'm Daniel Lemm, citizen of Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate.

Leah Lemm:
And this is Wisdom Continuum. We are bringing you conversations from awesome Native folks to celebrate Native wisdom for a healthier, thoughtful, more just future. And today we're talking about one of my favorite things.

Daniel Lemm:
What is that?

Leah Lemm:
Food. "I didn't know we were talking about me."

Daniel Lemm:
You're not food.

Leah Lemm:
Food and entrepreneurship and all that good stuff.

Daniel Lemm:
Yes.

Leah Lemm:
But before we get to that, how are you?

Daniel Lemm:
I'm doing fine, Leah. Nice day outside. Lots of good things going on. These conversations that we've been having are just really inspiring and keeping me going with what Native people have going on and how they're attacking systems changes. And doing that through an Indigenous lens. So how about you, Leah? How are you doing?

Leah Lemm:
Yeah, so inspiring that we had to take a cycle off to gather our strength and wits and resources to make sure we can keep going forward. I know you got sick.

Daniel Lemm:
Yeah.

Leah Lemm:
I wasn't feeling great for a couple weeks, but we are scheduling out and making sure we have lots of great conversations coming up, because it is a complete joy.

Daniel Lemm:
Absolutely. And you know, you got to be healthy. You got to take care of yourself in order to continue doing this kind of work.

Leah Lemm:
That's right. Isn't that what we've learned? So, we're just putting that into practice, really. So, I mean, Susan Beaulieu would be proud, right, right?

Daniel Lemm:
We should ask her, Susan are you proud of us?

Leah Lemm:
Exactly. I'm sure she's proud. That's the litmus test. Awesome. But today we're talking to somebody I've actually never talked to before. So I'm stoked, you know her though.

Daniel Lemm:
That's right. I first met Kim in the Native Nation Rebuilders program-

Leah Lemm:
Well, people don't know who we're talking to yet.

Daniel Lemm:
Oh.

Leah Lemm:
So you might want to say her full name.

Daniel Lemm:
Oh yeah. So I first met Kim Tilsen-Brave Heart when we were in the first cohort of the Native Nation Rebuilders program. And I won't go into talking about that program so much as the connections, the network that you build as part of being with other strong Native individuals who are working to build and rebuild their nations. That's where I came to know about Kim Tilsen-Brave Heart. And she's a wonderful person. She's got a great laugh. She's super smart. And she's driven, she works extremely hard, and I'm like, "You know what, that's my kind of person."

Leah Lemm:
That sounds right.

Daniel Lemm:
She's got a lot of good stuff going on. Let's hear what she has to say. She's definitely working, or bringing Native wisdom into her work. So yeah.

Leah Lemm:
Give us the bio.

Daniel Lemm:
Kim Tilsen-Brave Heart is a member of the Oglala Lakota Nation of the Pine Ridge Indian Reserve in South Dakota. She is an entrepreneur, a chef, and she embraces both her Indigenous and Jewish heritage.

Leah Lemm:
Right on. All right. Could you take a moment and introduce yourself?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Hau Mitakuyapi. My name is Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart. I'm an enrolled citizen of the Oglala Sioux Tribe located on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation right here in South Dakota. I'm an entrepreneur. I have two companies. One is Painted Skye Management. I've been in business for 17 years, specializing in Indigenous small business development. In that time I have helped establish over 300 Native small businesses, as well as 17 tribal enterprises, resulting in over 757 full-time positions through out Indian Country and $55 million in profits. I also own another company called Chef Brave Heart, where I am an Indigenous chef. We do Indigenous catering, personal cheffing and chef demos. And I've been in business with that business for five years. Oh, I'm also a mother of three.

Daniel Lemm:
Wow, Kim, that's quite the resume. The being the mother of three, not that other stuff. No. But, definitely your work with Chef Brave Heart, as well as Painted Skye Management, that's some impressive work that you've carried out in Indian countries. So good for you, and thank you for doing the work that you do. Wanted to talk with you a little bit about Chef Brave Heart, as well as Painted Skye Management. And talking in part about how both of those businesses connect to your values. What do you see as your purpose with both of these businesses? And then the follow-up question is, how do they align with you as a person? So kind of a two-part question there, and we can always start with the first part and then we can go back to that second one.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure. Well, I am a sixth generation entrepreneur and I grew up in an entrepreneurial home and I was QuickBooks certified at age 12. I ran my dad's books for his management firm when I was a kid. And I always felt like there were a lot of tools that I was provided specifically around finance and money at a really young age. That I felt like my counterparts in Native community did not have the fortune of being able to have. And I felt like I had an ability to connect with people, but also to be able to teach in a way that didn't feel condescending, and felt like a way of supporting. Because I really believe that as Indigenous people that we actually have the skills and tools as entrepreneurs, because it's why we still exist. We have those cultural teachings within us. And it's kind of like re-adapting from what we knew as our ancestral knowledge and connecting it to modern times.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And that's one of the reasons why I truly believe that entrepreneurship, excuse me, entrepreneurship and small business development is a way to reduce poverty, specifically in reservations, but in Indian country throughout. And I also believe culturally the sharing, sorry, my dog is, Puppy go lay down. The sharing of knowledge is really important. And also mentorship. If we have somebody that has the skills and we're kind of walking on the path together, that we have more of an ability to be successful and it takes away some of the fear, if that makes sense. And when I moved home, I was living in Atlanta. And then when I moved home to my reservation, I knew that I had education and skills specifically around small businesses and small business development, but I didn't really know how to do that. And I realized that a lot of people just need kind of a checklist and a support system to get through the process, and I felt I had the personality to do that. And so that's one of the ways that I have made Painted Skye successful.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And then for Chef Brave Heart, I have been cooking since I was eight years old. I come from a single family dad and all surrounded by brothers, and my dad was a terrible, awful cook. And I was literally worried about our survival. And so I asked my grandparents and my aunts and uncles to teach me about cooking. And I loved how they kind of lit up when they were teaching me and how it was very simple meals, but it was this process of learning from them and receiving from them. And then also then taking that knowledge and putting it right to task. And I would say by nine I was probably cooking at least three dinners a week. And then by 10, I was fully, doing all the grocery shopping and probably doing at least five meals a week for my family. And I've kind of taken that throughout my entire life of cooking for ceremonies and community gatherings and family reunions and family gatherings.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And then five years ago is when I actually launched and do the same of sharing of knowledge of my food and traditions and culture. I don't know if that answers your question?

Daniel Lemm:
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And in some ways I think Leah could relate to where if like I was the one cooking the meals regularly. Even for lunch here I popped in a frozen pizza. So that was-

Leah Lemm:
Where did you get that frozen pizza?

Daniel Lemm:
I didn't tell you about it. I bought it over the week and I've had it in the other freezer.

Leah Lemm:
The basement one.

Daniel Lemm:
And then you know I'm going to be excited with you being QuickBooks certified at the age of 12.

Leah Lemm:
That's awesome.

Daniel Lemm:
That's nerdy and awesome and such an important skill for anybody to have and how you turn that, plus your other knowledge and experiences all that into business to support Native communities. So you talked about Chef Brave Heart and you talked about Painted Skye Management. I also know that on your websites you talk about being Lakota and Jewish. And so wondering if you could expand on how you bring your Lakota and Jewish values into your work as an entrepreneur?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure.

Daniel Lemm:
And then, is there an example that you could use in how those values play out in your businesses?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure. I mean, I think that, believe it or not, I believe that there's a lot of similarities between Jewish culture and Lakota culture. I feel we're both earth-based spiritual religions. I mean, it's because, not to get all crazy political or anything, but I feel Judaism has become in competition with Catholicism. But when you go to the root of what the religion actually is, it's very earth based and calendar based very similar, seasonal based is what I meant very similar to Lakota culture. And when growing up, I grew up in a family, a pretty Jewish family, I would say liberal Jewish family and everything was based around food. And how we gathered together and how we supported each other and how we shared knowledge. And one of the interesting parts in my family, and I'm sure this is similar for other families in both in Jewish culture is our family is like, we all own small businesses.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And so when a family member wants to own another small business, instead of going to mainstream lending, they would actually come to the family first and they would present their business idea and business plan. Then the family would make a decision and everybody would invest something to help launch that business. And it's kind of like a small model of micro lending. Not to nerd out on you. I know you like that, Daniel. And I just think that that model for example, is brilliant. And I think that as we have more bachelor educated Native people and business educated Native people, and as they continue to grow their businesses that we could be creating that same model of without mainstream lending of micro lending. I also think that some of the things that we don't want to talk about, but is like stereotypical. I started a savings account when I was three years old and learning to save 10% of every dollar that I either made or received, that was either gifted to me or received.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And that helped give me a lot of freedom. And I think, when you go back to the root of Indigenous resource management, we did the same thing. That's why we exist. We manage our resources extremely well throughout of all of the seasonality. And I think that reclaiming of that is helpful and supportive of entrepreneurs. So it doesn't feel like this foreign concept. We always hear it, first generation entrepreneur, first generation entrepreneur, but I actually don't believe that. I feel most Native families are probably third or fourth generation entrepreneurs. And so reclaiming of that identity of saying, "I'm actually a good resource manager," instead of a poverty mindset. And I hope that makes sense. And so I think those values of resource management and understanding where my resources come from, how do I save for the future and how it gives me power and freedom to decide what I want to do, how I want to invest, reinvest in myself, whether it be with a home or how do I create more assets through businesses. I don't know if that makes all that sense?

Leah Lemm:
That does make sense. And it also sounds like there's a similarity with community resource management. A lot of that community involvement, familial involvement, instead of going to insert a large bank name here and really yeah, having that community investment.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
But what's cool about the way I would say is connecting that familial support. So when you have all these investors that are your family, they are more invested into the long term of your success. They're not investing because, oh, they think that's the most amazing savvy business idea ever, they're investing because they love you and they want the best for you. And so they're going to offer support in accounting services, in management services and things where they're like, "This is what worked for me in my business. This is how I," so you're learning really through mentorship too. And the longevity of your success rate is more sustainable, rather than just a mainstream lender where they make money, whether your business succeeds or fails. So that's another thing to think about.

Leah Lemm:
Right.

Daniel Lemm:
So it's like with those banks or your typical financial institution, they're worried about the bottom line. They do want to make sure that you're making money for them. You know, they're making money off of you and in fees and in other ways of course too. You're also in this model that you're talking about with the community and with family is you're getting technical assistance as part of it as well. So it's not only the financial capital, the technical assistance, the knowhow, the lessons learned, the being all in. So there's more to being an entrepreneur than having financial capital to be able to grow your business. I mean, you obviously already know this, Kim, but that's part of what excites me about what you're saying here regarding bringing your values into this work.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Yeah, no, I a 100% agree. And I think that, what I have seen, because I kind of ride that line of both Indian country and non-Native community, is that in non-Native community it's like entrepreneurship is a big secret, the success part. And so nobody wants to talk about their mistakes or the things that they did wrong, or, "This is what I would do. This is how I could help you and support you." And that's not how I grew up. I grew up where my dad and my uncle both had failed businesses and I learned from their mistakes of like, what are the most crucial components of being successful and how do you manage your business well? And very forthcoming with me about those process. And I feel like when you have that kind of technical support, but from a mentor who really cares deeply about your long-term success, I think impacts you where you're like, "Okay, it doesn't have to be perfect and I'm going to probably make mistakes."

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
I mean, I feel I make mistakes on my businesses all the time, but because of their experience I'm like, "I'm going to be okay." Do you know what I mean? It's not this, I feel like a Native community, because the pressure is so high, if we make a mistake, we are judged so harshly that we're not likely to go out and make another business. And in reality, most entrepreneurs have seven failed businesses before they have a successful one. And so how do we allow Native people and Native community to make mistakes, have great business ideas, take risks, calculated risks hopefully, and also realize that sometimes it does take an evolution to come to what actually works.

Leah Lemm:
Yeah. I also what's popular in well, pop culture entrepreneurship is that there's the grind and the hustle. And you want to comment on that, because I feel I'm like, as an entrepreneur in my own small way, I feel there's that pressure to rise and grind. And it's already built into the work because I'm always thinking about it, and I love it. You have any thoughts on that pop culture, rise and grind mentality?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
To be honest with you, this is something I struggle with.

Leah Lemm:
Yeah.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
I got a divorce this past year, and I feel it was a very much awakening experience for me. I was married for 16 years and I realized, I felt overnight a switch happened where I could no longer, and Daniel can attest to this. I am a very much type A, get up really early, make my bed, tell everybody, "Let's make it happen. Let's work super hard." But when you're a single mom of three, I can't work 18 hours a day. And so, that's what I was doing, because I've run two successful businesses pretty much on my own. And so, I think part of what has happened to me in this year, although it was hard was the reality of what actually is important. And I realized one of the most important sentiments of being an entrepreneur is that you can't let your business run you, you have to run your business.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And part of that is setting some very, very clear boundaries. One of the things that I do is that I now take off Mondays. Mondays used to be where I, just like everybody else by 5:30 a.m. I had made breakfast, and I have extremely high standards for myself as a mother and as an entrepreneur. And I make my kids meals, three meals a day, even as a single mom. And I realized that there are things that I had to prioritize. And one of them was my own self, my own self-care. And so I don't work Mondays because it used to be the busy long stressful day, but also by three o'clock in the afternoon I no longer work. You can't reach me if it's related to work. And I set very clear boundaries with the exception of Daniel who Facebook me, most people, when they message me on social media, my private social media, I say, "This is how you can contact me. These are when I'm available," and I'm pretty strict about it. And some people are offended and I'm okay with that.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And I don't have the capacity to be worn out all the time, because I'm a single mother of three. And so rest is really important to me. And I also realize that because of how I've adjusted my business, I am doing more in-depth fruitful projects that are actually making me more money, instead of working a whole bunch of projects that are making me less money. And I'm very picky. And so when people bring a project to me, they know that I'm interviewing them and they're not interviewing me. Interviewing them that if I want to receive, if I want to work with them, if it feels right. I even do this with my catering clients, I interview them. Because I realize that it's not about money for me, it's about joy. And I want to work on projects that feel connected to my values, feel like my skills and resources and my knowledge are going to be best utilized and where I feel I can bring the most of me to the table.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And in capacity wise managing my kids' schedule and mine, it feels like a right fit. And even with catering, I'm in high, high demand. I mean, I'm booked out almost nine months in advance. And because of that I have the ability to set my prices what I want them to be, where it feels like I'm being valued for them. But also, there are projects that are important to me. They're either related to Native community or they're exciting and fun. Like this weekend, this coming Friday I'm cooking for the Stone Temple Pilots and it's because the manager follows me on social media and thinks my food is beautiful. And he was like, "I will pay her whatever she wants to pay. I want her to be treated well. I want her to have a great experience, but I want to mostly try her food." And so those experiences are fun because I'm respected as not only a chef, but also as a person who is being seen for who they are, if that makes sense.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And in a lot of times in the food industry, as you know, people just act like you're the help. And I won't work in situations like that. So in a long explanation, boundaries, super, super important boundaries and people always freak out like, "Well, if you leave money on the table." Girl, I leave money on the table every week, because it's not worth it to me. And this year will be probably my most profitable year in both businesses. And I would have never thought that, because before I felt as an entrepreneur I was on that grind and I really was living in a place of, I think fear. Because we're afraid, if we're not this and we're not posting on social media every day. Because I have people literally on my Instagram For Chef Brave Heart sweat me. They're like, "Why aren't you posting and why aren't you?"

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And I'm like, "I don't have to live by your standards or whatever that is." And because I'm so booked out so far in advance, I post and then people want to book me and I'm not available to them. So it kind of sells itself, if that makes sense.

Leah Lemm:
It does. Yeah. And putting those values front and center, prioritizing them. I feel like a lot of things tend to fall in place a bit better than just scrambling without those guideposts.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
I also think, believe it or not, I feel my customers treat me better. I feel because I understand my boundaries and my value that the way that people speak to me and the way that they ask me to do certain projects and even my financial value, they don't question it, if that makes sense. They're like, "Oh, if we want her, this is what we're paying."

Leah Lemm:
Yep. And I think that's important for everybody to realize too, because then you build that expectation of people asking for what they need.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Yes.

Leah Lemm:
But I do want to talk about Indigenous foods, and can you tell us what is an Indigenous way of eating and how does it affect us beyond nutrition?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure. So I don't want to speak for all tribal nations obviously because that would feel weird. We are all vast and diverse and so are our diets, but for Lakotas, and I would say a more Midwestern Indigenous diet, it's very protein based with a lot of berries and vegetables. And so, taking out sugar, taking out refined flour and I use probably a ton of Buffalo is what our major protein is. And Buffalo is great for your digestive system. I mean, it goes through your digestion system faster than salmon even does. And people don't realize that because it's such a healthy, lean protein. And because of colonization we were pushed on to commodities, which had a ton of refined sugar and flour. And I actually feel connected us to addiction, to alcoholism and the sugar in alcohol. And so reclaiming of Indigenous diets is reclaiming of those healthier proteins, vegetables that are from your region and berries, and yeah.

Leah Lemm:
And what do you see as the wisdom, I guess, what do you see as the wisdom behind going and examining our diets and embracing Indigenous foods?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
I actually see the reclaiming of Indigenous foods is the same reclamation of land back, of reclaiming of our ancestral lands, of reclaiming of our culture, our languages. And I feel it reclaims the strength of our ancestral spirit and it provides healing for us. I even notice for me, when I am really clean on my eating and I'm eating, I would say like 90% Indigenous foods, I feel stronger both mentally, spiritually and physically. I feel my brain feels very clear and I think there's a lot of power in that. I feel it helps us reconnect to our spirits in a way that is immense and deep because it helps us rebuild our connection to the land. And as Indigenous people, without the land we're nothing. And so that reclaiming of who we are and how we connect to the land and even how we hunt our animals, how we pay homage to them and respect to them. And we take care of their spirit as we go hunting and do these things. And even foraging, it helps us rebuild what we've lost because of colonization.

Daniel Lemm:
So to Leah's question about the wisdom around an Indigenous way of eating, you likened it to reclamation of land, Native values and Native ways of being. Had a question here about, so how does the Indigenous diet fit into the larger ecosystem of health and economy?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Ooh.

Daniel Lemm:
Any thoughts on that question?

Leah Lemm:
Yeah, we don't expect a thesis, but do you have any thoughts on that?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Yeah, not a heavy, not a heavy question at all, Daniel.

Daniel Lemm:
We wouldn't ask that question, Kim, if we didn't think you had something to offer here.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
I actually believe that there for me, when I think about Painted Skye, my small business development firm and Chef Brave Heart, everybody sees them as two separate things, and I don't. I see them as one very connected thing. And intentionally so. Because I believe that what has happened because of colonization and forced reservations, which are really unfenced concentration camps, where we are away from healthy access to foods, and we are ... Like on my reservation it's really tough land because we're missing so much top soil there. It's really tough land to garden and to harvest and actually believe it or not Lakota, we're not gardeners. We bartered, we were hunters. And so even culturally is not really a part of who we were. But I think that when we start understanding the economics of even growing our own food or foraging our own food and hunting. I can feed eight families off of one Buffalo for a year, and that's a lot. And so maybe, and even breaking it down where thinking about your food, because everyone's like, "Oh, it's so expensive. It's so expensive to eat healthy."

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And I'm like, "Well, so is processed food." Because on my reservation it's 81 miles to the nearest grocery store. And so there's a lot of convenience stores, and what are in convenience stores? They are stuff full of sugar and heavy white starches that are not good for people, for Indigenous people, and dairy. And so I think that there was ... For me it reconnects to manifest destiny, the policy of manifest destiny of why so many Native people are diabetic and overweight and have numerous health issues are all connected to wanting to get rid of Native Indigenous people on the land here. And so when we reclaim of our diet, we're taking back saying, "We're not going to be a part of your system anymore. We're going to do what is traditionally inside of us."

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And there is also related to economics. People are having more ability to not just provide for themselves, but for the other families in their communities. And also just teaching people how to cook simple things. So many people have been forced into cooking things that come from a box and it's what they know, Mr. Frozen pizza over there. It's what you grew up with and it's what you know and it's what you feel comfortable in. But then once you start realizing like, "Oh, if I buy all these vegetables and I can make three meals at least with a whole chicken for the week." So in that chicken, I mean I have, well probably boujee-er chickens the most, but it's $8, and I know that chicken, I have fed that chicken, I'm taking care of that chicken.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And so it's probably $8, but I'm getting three meals out of it. So just even some of that of teaching people about resource management, even through changing the way that your diet is through food. And so when you take away some of the box cereals and chips and white bread and other things, you're reclaiming of both your financial situation and sustainability as well as your health and spiritual health. And it is hard. I mean, I had a young woman who said, "I get what you're saying, but I can go to KFC and get a whole box of chicken and all the sides for $20." And I don't know, so how do you change that? Because for me it's not just about money. It's about the physical health, the spiritual health that it provides you. I also think that making dinner together as a family and eating dinner together as a family intentionally, you're bringing back your tribalism, you're reclaiming of your family and that traditional cultural identity is Tiospaye, your larger circle, if that makes sense. I don't know if any of that answers your question, but?

Daniel Lemm:
Yeah, no, I mean, it absolutely does. Even before you talked about me being frozen pizza guy, I was like, "Oh no, that is a perfect example of what you're talking about." Because I can go to the grocery store and get the $5 frozen pizza, can pop it in the oven. I can go do a bunch of other things. I could set the timer, come back, take it out, keep doing what else I'm doing. And it's convenient. And what you're saying is there's more to health. So it's convenient and it's cheap. Well, it's cheaper than making my own pizza going. Well, yeah. I mean, we don't need to talk about economies of scale right now. But what I'm saying here in the KFC example that you used too, it's like, that's cheaper than raising all those chickens and the potatoes and then making the cole slaw, all of that.

Daniel Lemm:
And, you're talking about looking at it more holistically in what food means to us as Native people and how that story, not that story, but how that act of preparing food and nourishing ourselves is not only about maybe the physical health, but also mental, social, emotional, all those, the holistic approach and how food is so central to us as Native people. You don't get all that when you pop the pizza in the oven and then take off and then come back, eat quickly and then move on.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Yeah, I mean, or even, and I'm not trying to pick on you, but even thinking about it in this way of, that pizza doesn't actually make you feel better physically. It actually will, and it also doesn't make you feel better mentally. And you're Native, and so you probably have some lactose diet restrictions as well as gluten. Because those are two things that were traditionally not a part of our culture, that our Indigenous diets were. And so when you start thinking about those things, I actually really have my kids. I ask them, they're like, "I want McDonald's," just like any other kid would. And my baby, who's four, I'm like, "You're not eating your McDonald's that you got." And she's like, "Well, it doesn't make me feel good." And I'm like, "So you like the idea because other people are eating it, but you actually don't like the way that it makes you feel."

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And so even that thing of actually getting people to have conversations about when you're eating healthy vegetables and healthy proteins, how does it make you feel? And for me, it makes me feel strong. I'm like, oh, I have the ability to be highly productive. It actually makes me sleep better. I go to bed, I sleep through the night when I'm eating clean. And it helps me do all the things that I need to accomplish because before I would just be just like everybody else, like I said, I was really literally working between 16, 18 hours a day and being a mom and being a wife. And I would just like grab a bar. I would grab whatever was easier. And I felt like crap all the time and I was sick all the time. And when you reclaim of your Indigenous diet, you're also reclaiming of your health, your spiritual health and your mental health too.

Leah Lemm:
See, I see so many parallels between what we're talking about now, what we're talking about earlier with the exchange, this transactional relationship with food and a transactional relationship with banks, with money, kind of that superficial like, "I need calories, I need money." And that other thing, whether it is a bank or a piece of pizza is not really interested in you. It's not nourishing you.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Exactly. It's not nourishing you. And I bet Daniel's going to want to take a nap later.

Leah Lemm:
Well, because he might want to.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
See, that's I notice that almost immediately, when I eat food that I shouldn't be eating like this, I'm like.

Leah Lemm:
Yeah. So Daniel, how are you feeling right now?

Daniel Lemm:
I mean, I'm feeling like I'm being ... I'm feeling good.

Leah Lemm:
You should have known better.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Daniel's like, "Why did I connect these two women?"

Leah Lemm:
Come visit any time, Kimberly.

Daniel Lemm:
I'm feeling I should stop telling Kim what I eat. And I'm feeling it's a good thing that I did because Kim was able to ... Not only do you make delicious food, but it's like you explain why that delicious food is so important to the person who's going to be consuming that. And so I don't mind being an example here, and I rarely eat frozen pizza, but it's like I had to eat it right before I talked to Kim. So my timing was terrible here. But also perfect in being an example. So I'm also okay with that.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Well, I also, I mean, you said you follow me on Instagram. I'm very intentional about the food that I make. And it's not just about putting something on a plate for me. I make it intentionally beautiful. I want it to be a sensory experience where people are like, when they see it looks like art to them. And they're like, "Whoa, this is beautiful, and I want to try it." And it's not just this rushing of mass consumerism. You were in a hurry, you wanted to do it. You're like, "I'm just going to stuff it down." And I do that. I mean, I've done that too, where you're like, "I'm starving." But hey, next time, maybe grab an apple first. You know what I mean? Before you can still eat the frozen pizza, but first fill up on the apple and a big glass of water and see if you still want that frozen pizza.

Daniel Lemm:
So one question for you, Kim, on your website on chefbraveheart.com you've got some recipes.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure.

Daniel Lemm:
And wondering, so we're hosting a dinner party in the next couple of days.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Sure.

Daniel Lemm:
What's a fun recipe to make? What would you suggest we offer our guests?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Do you have access to Buffalo or no?

Daniel Lemm:
We could get it at the grocery. We could get ground Buffalo at the grocery store.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Can you get a Buffalo roast, or no?

Daniel Lemm:
I doubt it.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Okay. Well, this is a good one that you could do. You could do Buffalo meatballs. They don't have any gluten in them. And you put them in with some, I would do a pork Italian sausage. And if it's adults, I would do spicy, but if it's not, I would do mild. And then add salt, pepper, garlic powder and paprika, and a little bit of Worcestershire sauce. No breadcrumbs, no milk. And then an egg, mix, really work it really, really well. You want to break up all those proteins and mix it together. And then you cook those meatballs and you want to make them pretty hearty with Buffalo because of the water content you have a pretty big reduction. So you want to make them bigger than you think that you would normally do. And then you'll cook them in the oven at 375 for 45 minutes and they will be juicy and delicious. And then I would make a Berry compote or wojapi for the top. And people will be like, "This is very odd, but it's very delicious."

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
And it's something that I make. And I usually put it on a bed of salads with strawberries and blueberries and a vinegarette that I make at home. And it's a sensory experience and it's beautiful and people are blown away by it.

Daniel Lemm:
Wow. Thank you, that's one of the things that we're going to be serving. And I got to say, too bad it's within the next couple of days and that you're booked out nine months. Otherwise, I was saying, "Kim, what can you do for us here?"

Leah Lemm:
Oh my God.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
Well, I'm coming to Minnesota with the kids for the whole month of August, so maybe we could get together.

Leah Lemm:
Oh, wow.

Daniel Lemm:
That would be great.

Leah Lemm:
Kimberly, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we say goodbye?

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
No, it was really great to meet you and, Daniel it's always good to see you. And thanks for always allowing me to tease you.

Leah Lemm:
Definitely appreciate the conversation here, Kim. This was wonderful. And I look forward to our paths crossing hopefully in August, but I also appreciate the content that you share on social media too. I get kicks out of it.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
It's good to see you guys and we'll be in touch and-

Leah Lemm:
Absolutely.

Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart:
... thanks for asking me to participate.

Daniel Lemm:
All right. Thanks a lot, Kim. Take care. Bye.

Leah Lemm:
Excellent. Kimberly Tilsen-Brave Heart, entrepreneur, chef extraordinaire. Really making an impact on Indian country and Indian country economy. That's really cool. All the jobs that she's helped create, she's had a hand in creating.

Daniel Lemm:
Yeah.

Leah Lemm:
So that's, heck yeah. I'm always for successful folks, especially successful folks helping to create more successful people. That's the dream.

Daniel Lemm:
Absolutely. Leah, I was struck by many of the points that Kim made. And one of those was around setting boundaries. And really how Kim talks about discipline, she talked about knowing her value. About saying no, leaving money on the table. Not working Mondays, not working after three o'clock. I think, Leah, you know where I'm getting to at this, in that I'm wondering some of your initial takeaways in what she had to say around being an entrepreneur and kind of a little bit about how she runs her businesses. Did any of that resonate with you?

Leah Lemm:
I think what does resonate is doing what feels energetically beneficial. And not working out of fear, but working out of abundance. And that's important to me. I can always tell when I'm getting into a project that I like, and I'm all in, or one that I'm kind of wary of. It's hard for me because I feel like, "Am I just afraid because I'm nervous and it's exciting and it's out of my comfort zone? Or am I feeling reticent because it's just a bad fit?" So I'm working on it.

Daniel Lemm:
That's all part of being an entrepreneur I imagine. Learning and adapting and always fine tuning your craft and how you can put the best product or service out there.

Leah Lemm:
And fine, fine. I will learn to use QuickBooks or is that the one she was using?

Daniel Lemm:
Yes. QuickBooks online even would be a good tool.

Leah Lemm:
I will just have my folder of fun.

Daniel Lemm:
Folder of fun. How about vacations? What do you think about taking a vacation sometime?

Leah Lemm:
Didn't I just go to Boston?

Daniel Lemm:
For a couple of days.

Leah Lemm:
I don't even know what vacation means. I feel my brain would be too focused on all the things that I should be doing at that time to go on vacation. I don't even know what that means.

Daniel Lemm:
We might need to find somebody to talk to about how to take a vacation.

Leah Lemm:
Well, I am going to do my hike, superior hiking trail hike in the summer.

Daniel Lemm:
Good, good.

Leah Lemm:
So I am looking forward to that. We'll see how long I last. See how much food I can bring in my back. I'm sure it won't be healthy food. It'll all be like freeze dried food.

Daniel Lemm:
Just bring some snares. You'll be fine.

Leah Lemm:
Then I'd have to learn how to prepare those waabooz. I'll have to watch The Walking Dead again and learn all those skills. Those survivalist skills.

Daniel Lemm:
Yeah. I mean, there's lots of reasons why The Walking Dead keeps making its way back into our conversations, huh?

Leah Lemm:
Anyway, should we call it a day?

Daniel Lemm:
We are talking with so many great people and we want to say that your input matters too. Do you know someone who's working on systems change or centering Indigenous values, or do you have a topic or interview suggestion? If so, then email wisdomcontinuum AT gmail.com.

Leah Lemm:
Find Wisdom Continuum online at wisdomcontinuum.com and on social media, on Instagram and Twitter at Wisdom Continuum. Thank you to Wisdom Continuum's consulting producer, Multitude. I'm Leah.

Daniel Lemm:
I'm Daniel. This is Wisdom Continuum.

Leah Lemm:
It's nothing like a big sandwich.

Daniel Lemm:
No, I was talking about your uh.